KURTZ: And joining us now from Baghdad is Laura Logan, chief foreign correspondent for CBS News.
KURTZ: Bush and Cheney essentially seem to be accusing you and your colleagues of carrying the terrorist message by reporting on so many of these attacks. What do you make of that?
LOGAN: Well, I think that's -- that is a very convenient way of looking at it. It doesn't reflect the value judgment that's implicit in that.
As a journalist, if an American soldier or an Iraqi person dies that day, you have to make a decision about how you weigh the value of reporting that news over the value of something that may be happening, say, a water plant that's being turned on that brings fresh water to 200 Iraqi people. I mean, you get accused of valuing human life in a certain way depending on how you report it.
And also, as -- I mean, what I would point out is that you can't travel around this country anymore without military protection. You can't travel without armed guards. You're not free to go every time there's a school opening or there's some reconstruction project that's being done.
We don't have the ability to go out and cover those. If they want to see a fair picture of what's happening in Iraq, then you have to first start with the security issue.
When journalists are free to move around this country, then they will be free to report on everything that's going on. But as long as you're a prisoner of the terrible security situation here, then that's going to be reflected in your coverage.
And not only that, but their own figures show that their reconstruction project was supposed to create 1.5 million Iraqi jobs. To date, 77,000 Iraqi government jobs have been created. That should give you an indication of how far along they are in terms of reconstruction.
We have to put everything in its context. We can't go to one small unit and say, oh, they did a great job in this village and ignore all the other villages that haven't seen any improvement in their conditions.
[snip]
LOGAN: Well, who says things aren't falling apart in Iraq? I mean, what you didn't see on your screens this week was all the unidentified bodies that have been turning up, all the allegations here of militias that are really controlling the security forces.
What about all the American soldiers that died this week that you didn't see on our screens? I mean, we've reported on reconstruction stories over and over again, but the order to (ph) general for Iraqi reconstruction says that only 49 of well over 100 planned electricity projects happened.
So we can't keep doing the same stories over and over again. When a police station's attacked, that's something new that happened this week. If you had any idea of the number of Iraqis that come to us with stories of abuses of U.S. soldiers and you look at our coverage over the last -- my coverage over the last few weeks, or even over the last three years, there's been maybe two or three stories that have related to that.
So, I mean, we have to do the stories that when we've tested them and tested them and checked all our sources, and that they are legitimate stories on that day, that that is the biggest news coming out of Iraq, then that's what we have to do.
[snip]
KURTZ: So what you're saying is that what we see on the "CBS Evening News" or other networks actually is only a snapshot, is only perhaps scratching the surface of the kinds of violence and difficulties that you are witnessing day after day because you can only get so much of this on the air?
LOGAN: Oh, yes. Absolutely. And, I mean, our own -- you know, our own editors back in New York are asking us the same things.
They read the same comments. You know, are there positive stories? Can't you find them?
You don't think that I haven't been to the U.S. military and the State Department and the embassy and asked them over and over again, let's see the good stories, show us some of the good things that are going on? Oh, sorry, we can't take to you that school project, because if you put that on TV, they're going to be attacked about, the teachers are going to be killed, the children might be victims of attack.
Oh, sorry, we can't show this reconstruction project because then that's going to expose it to sabotage. And the last time we had journalists down here, the plant was attacked.
I mean, security dominates every single thing that happens in this country. Reconstruction funds have been diverted to cover away from reconstruction to -- they've been diverted to security.
Soldiers, their lives are occupied most of the time with security issues. Iraqi civilians' lives are taken up most of the time with security issues.
So how it is that security issues should not then dominate the media coverage coming out of here?
KURTZ: I want to play for you a piece of tape involving Laura Ingraham, the conservative radio talk show how who was on "The Today Show" earlier this week and criticized "The Today Show" for not doing more from Iraq.
Let's listen to what she had to say.
[snip] [Ingraham went to Tal Afar and according to her, everything is peachy there. ]
KURTZ: What do you make of that comment about reporting from hotel balconies?
LOGAN: Well, I think it's outrageous. I mean, Laura Ingraham should come to Iraq and not be talking about what journalists are doing from the comfort of her studio in the United States, the comfort and the safety.
I mean, I don't know any journalist that wants to just sit in a hotel room in Iraq. Does anybody understand that for us we used to be able to drive to Ramadi, we used to drive to Falluja, we used to drive to Najaf. We could travel all over this country without having to fly in military helicopters.
That's the only way we can move around here. So, it's when the military can accommodate us, if the military can accommodate us, then we can go out and see.
I have been out with Iraqi security forces over and over again. And you know what? When Bob Woodruff was out with Iraqi security forces and he was injured, the first thing that people were asking was, oh, was he being responsible by placing himself in this position with Iraqi forces? And they started to question his responsibility and integrity as a journalist.
I mean, we just can't win. I think it's an outrage to point the finger at journalists and say that this is our fault. I really do. And I think it shows an abject lack of respect for any journalist that's prepared to come to this country and risk their lives.
KURTZ: All right. I do...
LOGAN: And that's not just me. That's the crews, that's all the people that make up our teams here.
NOW, TIME FOR SOME "TRUTHINESS" FROM BILL "SLOTS" BENNETT
KURTZ: Welcome back to RELIABLE SOURCES. ... Joining us now to talk about the president, the war, and the press, Bill Bennett, host of "Morning in America" on Salem Radio Network, and Washington fellow at the Clairemont Institute. And Bill Press, host of "The Bill Press Show" on Sirius Satellite Radio and a former "CROSSFIRE" co-host here at CNN.
Bill Bennett, do you believe that most journalists have turned against this war or are just being aggressive in the way that they cover it?
BILL BENNETT, SALEM RADIO NETWORK: Well, I think most -- most -- yes, I think most journalists, most mainstream journalists are turning against the war. You just had an interesting sample. You had four journalists on.
Interesting, not one bit of question about whether there's any bias in the media from them. Four journalists who don't think there's any bias at all, shocking.
A more serious point, not one bit of introspection. You know, well, maybe we are, maybe we do a little bit. Absolutely not -- I heard the word "outrageous" five times.
Who are these, you know, gooney Americans who could possibly think that we are biased? Well, there are -- it turns out there are a lot of Americans who think they're biased and they think they can cite chapter and verse.
[First step in the "culture war" that Slots is pushing. No one mentioned or implied anything about "gooney Americans."]
KURTZ: All right.
I want to play for both of you again the comments by your talk radio colleague, Laura Ingraham, on "The Today Show," followed by a rebuttal, a very strong rebuttal, from MSNBC's Keith Olbermann.
Let's take a look.
[SNIP]
KURTZ: What do you say?
BENNETT: Well, those are -- those are heroic people. I happen to know several of them very well. But I don't think there's any question either that some people are not venturing out. "The New York Times" even reports that they're not.
John Burns...
KURTZ: Well, they're limited in their ability to get out.
BENNETT: Well, sure.
KURTZ: And they need security escorts. And sometimes they need to be...
(CROSSTALK)
BENNETT: I understand. And they should be prudent. They shouldn't get themselves blown up. And that's obviously a sensible concern. John Burns of "The New York Times" says that the reporters are under-reporting the good news. He says we're guilty, absolutely guilty.
[ "We" who, Slots? Surely you don't think of yourself as a journalist? Here's what John Burns really thinks about Iraq:
A day after returning to the U.S., after another long term as bureau chief in Baghdad, John Burns of The New York Times said on Bill Maher's Friday night HBO program that he now feels, for the first time, that the American effort in Iraq will likely "fail."
Asked if a civil war was developing there, Burns said, "It's always been a civil war," adding that it's just a matter of extent. He said the current U.S. leaders there--military and diplomatic--were doing there best but sectarian differences would "probably" doom the enterprise. LINK]
You were asked the other day -- you're a fair-minded guy -- and you said it's negative, of course it's negative. You're just seeing exactly what the American people are seeing.
[SNIP]
BENNETT: Fine. I admire him. I salute him. He's courageous.
Let's talk about these bureaus. Let's talk about Helen Thomas at the press conference. Let's talk about David Gregory. Let's talk about Dan Rather. You think the American people can't see what's right in front of them?
KURTZ: Since you brought up Helen Thomas, she got a lot of attention this week for questions she asked at the news conference. She spent decades with the United Press International, now a columnist for Hearst.
Let's take a look at her question for the president.
[SNIP]
KURTZ: What did you make of Helen Thomas' comments?
BENNETT: Well, I mean, first of all, it's untrue. What she said is untrue. A number of reasons were cited, and those reasons turned out to be true, the kind of butchery that Saddam was practicing. It is much better place now by any objective criteria of life and death.
[No, Bill, the main reasons WMD and collaboration with Al-Queda - turned out to be false.]
KURTZ: So you're disagreeing with the premise of the question, but is it a fair question?
BENNETT: Yes, but, I mean, her hostility -- her hostility was evident. Her notion that she regards the president as a liar was clear to everybody who saw it.
PRESS: Look, it's a fair question. Obviously it's fair.
BENNETT: Badly asked.
PRESS: Bill, please. We are at war. The president gave reasons for going to war like weapons of mass destruction. Above all, like a connection with al Qaeda, like nuclear weapons, like a threat to the United States, none of which proved to be true. So fair question.
And if the president goes in front of the press corps at the last minute, which that was, he's got all those people there, presidents get tough questions. Every president has. What's the big deal? He can take it.
KURTZ: OK.
BENNETT: Of course he can take it. But, I mean, we can leave it at this: show that tape, as you did, let people decide whether they think that is a fair question asked in a fair way. The journalists say fine. The American people just don't think it was. Many of the American people.
PRESS: Just a final point. I think if there's a problem in Iraq, right, I would have to suggest, the way to fix it is not to blame the media, not to play the blame game. The way to fix it is to fix the problem.
I think the other thing they've been caught in is their own expectations, Howie. They're -- the White House is playing today against its own expectations that they put out in the media, like greeted as liberators, if I can just finish that, like...
KURTZ: Briefly.
PRESS: ... we're going to have -- we've seen the last throes of the insurgency. And they're not matching up. And so of course the media reports on that.
BENNETT: The game is up. It's not the press it used to be. It's not the American people it used to be. They blog, they talk to each other, they find out the lies.
[What lies, Bill?]
KURTZ: Let me play one more piece of tape for you, the president making a speech this week in West Virginia. A woman in audience asked him about all the car bombings and other attacks she sees on the news.
Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It seems that our major media networks don't want to portray the good. They just want to focus...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Fairly or unfair, there are a lot of Americans who agree with that woman.
PRESS: Yes, there are. There are, because, you know, propaganda works. If the White House puts it out there enough that the media is biased, a lot of people are going to believe it.
KURTZ: Are you suggesting that people are too dumb to...
BENNETT: That they're stupid. You think the American people are stupid.
PRESS: I'm suggesting it's an orchestrated campaign, and spin does work if you hear it enough from the very tops of this administration.
BENNETT: This is the attitude, those dumb people, they're propagandized, they're brainwashed.
PRESS: I didn't say that.
BENNETT: No, you said propaganda works. Propaganda works on people not smart enough to see through it. They can see through it, Bill.
PRESS: No, propaganda works from the masters of the propaganda, Bill.
BENNETT: You think Bush is -- now you think we're masters of propaganda?
[Changing hats again, Slots is now a member of the Administration.]
PRESS: I agree with you, I think the game is up. I think the blame game is up and it's not going to work for the administration.
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