NOT MUCH OPEN SUPPORT FOR OBL

McClatchy reports that few in the Arab world are openly mourning the death of OBL:

Al Qaida faithful mourn bin Laden, but few others do
By Hannah Allam | McClatchy Newspaper
Posted on Friday, May 6, 2011

In Pakistan, about 1,500 people took to the streets to protest bin Laden's killing, chanting anti-American slogans and burning the U.S. flag, according to videos posted online.

In Egypt, the birthplace of bin Laden's presumed successor, al Qaida commander Ayman al Zawahiri, about 400 members of the ultraconservative Salafi branch of Islam prayed for bin Laden at a mosque they'd seized last month from more moderate leadership

Among the thousands of protesters camped out in the Yemeni capital, Sanaa, the heart of a three-month-old revolt against President Ali Abdullah Saleh, there were no signs of grieving for bin Laden, and reports of only small commemorations in other parts of the country.

This should make it a little harder for the extreme gasbags to argue that we are at war with Islam.

THE POLITICS OF CAPITALISM

David Brooks has written another FAIL column and has deservedly gotten some well-reasoned and well-deserved criticism.  This part is profoundly ignorant:

The first citizens of this country erected institutions to protect themselves from their own shortcomings. We’re familiar with some of them: the system of checks and balances, the Senate, etc. More important, they believed, was public spiritedness — a system of habits and attitudes that would check egotism and self-indulgence.

Egotism is THE central assumption of the conservative approach both to economics and morality. The myth of the Free Market Fairy has been the pillar of conservative thinking for decades.

YUP, IT'S THE SOUTHERN CULTURE

I read this MSNBC report about the Florida legislature passing a law that outlaws bestiality :

Floridians are going to have to start pulling up their pants and stop having sex with animals soon.

It's up to Gov. Rick Scott to sign off on two bills passed in the Florida Senate and House Wednesday which target droopy drawers and bestiality.

The bestiality bill (SB 344) bans sexual activity between humans and animals and has been championed for years by Sen. Nan Rich, from Sunrise.

and I recalled that there was some social conservative who not only admitted to having sex with a mule, he said it was normal if you grew up on a farm in Georgia. From Newshounds:

Last night, anti-abortion extremist Neal Horsley was a guest on The Alan Colmes Show, a FOX News radio program.

At first, Horsley laughed and said, "Just because it's printed in the media, people jump to believe it."

"Is it true?" Colmes asked.

"Hey, Alan, if you want to accuse me of having sex when I was a fool, I did everything that crossed my mind that looked like I..."

AC: "You had sex with animals?"

NH: "Absolutely. I was a fool. When you grow up on a farm in Georgia, your first girlfriend is a mule."

AC: "I'm not so sure that that is so."

NH: "You didn't grow up on a farm in Georgia, did you?"

AC: "Are you suggesting that everybody who grows up on a farm in Georgia has a mule as a girlfriend?"


NH: It has historically been the case. You people are so far removed from the reality... Welcome to domestic life on the farm..."

A COUNTERPOINT TO THE KOCH BROTHERS MEETINGS

We knew that not all the extremely wealthy were glibertarian freaks like the Koch brothers but it's nice to have a little more evidence.

Billionaires gather in Arizona to discuss giving

Gathering a chance for billionaires who pledged to give away some of their fortunes chance to know each other

 May 6, 2011
(AP) 
Billionaire investor Warren Buffett says a private gathering at an Arizona resort where Oprah likes to hang out was a great chance for the American billionaires who have pledged to give away at least half their wealth to meet each other, compare notes, eat and laugh.

Buffett knew only about 12 of the 61 people at a Thursday dinner before the famously gregarious Berkshire Hathaway CEO worked the room and made 40 new friends.


Since last June, 69 individuals or couples have made the giving pledge.


"They all more than fulfilled my expectations," Buffett told The Associated Press on Friday in a telephone interview.

SOMETHING ELSE I DIDN'T KNOW

(I should probably find a way to make that post title a keyboard macro.)

One of my disappointments with the Obama Administration is the failure to make it easier to form or join a union through card check.  I know the legislation wasn't passed but it seems that card check is alive and well!!!

Federal Regulators Sue Arizona Over Union Law
MAY 6, 2011, 8:25 P.M. ET
By MELANIE TROTTMAN
Wall Street Journal

WASHINGTON -- The National Labor Relations Board filed suit against the state of Arizona Friday, challenging the legality of a state constitutional amendment that requires workers to hold a secret-ballot election to decide whether to unionize a company.

The agency argues that the state cannot override a federal law that gives workers the option of the so-called card-check method of organizing, in which workers sign cards indicating their interest in forming a union. Labor groups favor the method, while many employers oppose it.

The Arizona suit is the latest in a series of recent NLRB decisions that have sided with unions, which are struggling to remain relevant after years of declining membership and recent attempts by states to curb union bargaining power.

ANOTHER FATS LIMBAUGH FAIL

Fats Limbaugh claimed that Pres. Obama planned the OBL mission while filling out his NCAA bracket based on this entry on a sports blog.   Dan Fogarty, the author of the post, tries to set Fats right in this Mediaite post:

I thought that whoever read my piece would realize that I didn’t think President Obama had planned an attack on the world’s most wanted terrorist, by himself, while he had an NCAA tournament bracket on his lap.

I thought that whoever read my piece would realize that I didn’t think President Obama had diagrammed which window the Navy SEALs would enter with his left hand, while he picked Richmond over Vanderbilt with his right.

I also thought that whoever read my piece would assume I was highlighting the absurd criticisms leveled at the President about his bracket, and was highlighting the fact that, you know, he was getting stuff done, even though ESPN came to the White House and filmed him for 20 minutes.

THIS IS BIG TIME "LAWYER UP"

I'm not going to shed any tears but that money could've have been spent on other things besides defending banksters.

Goldman's 2010 Legal Tab: More Than $700 Million
By LIZ MOYER And BRETT PHILBIN
MAY 6, 2011, 12:39 P.M. ET
Wall Street Journal

NEW YORK—Goldman Sachs Group Inc. spent more than $700 million on lawyers last year, as the Wall Street firm found itself under high-profile scrutiny, its chief counsel told shareholders at the company's annual meeting Friday morning.

Responding to a shareholder's question, Gregory Palm said Goldman spent $434 million on outside lawyers last year and $292 million for its own legal staff.

The Wall Street giant last year faced congressional hearings over its actions before and during the financial crisis. It also paid the biggest penalty ever by a Wall Street firm to the Securities and Exchange Commission, $550 million to settle charges it misled customers over the sale of a complex mortgage derivative.

MORE EVIDENCE THAT THE U.S. IS UNDERTAXED

USA Today did an independent study of taxation in America and unlike the McClatchy study it included ALL taxes: Federal, State and Local.

U.S. tax burden at lowest level since '58
By Dennis Cauchon, USA TODAY
May 6, 2011

The total tax burden — for all federal, state and local taxes — dropped to 23.6% of income in the first quarter, according to Bureau of Economic Analysis data.

By contrast, individuals spent roughly 27% of income on taxes in the 1970s, 1980s and the 1990s — a rate that would mean $500 billion of extra taxes annually today, one-third of the estimated $1.5 trillion federal deficit this year.

THE ORIGIN OF "THE INVISIBLE HAND" CONCEPT

Adam Smith coined the phrase "the invisible hand" to describe the miracles of the Free Market Fairy and I read that he may have gotten that idea from the Greek Stoics.  It seems now that Bernard Mandeville's The Fable of the Bees or, Private Vices, Public Benefits (1732) gave Smith the general idea. 

Mandeville starts off his great work with a poetic parable about how a wonderful bee hive is organized and wealthy because, not despite,the moral failings of the bees:

A Spacious Hive well stockt with Bees,
That liv’d in Luxury and Ease;
And yet as fam’d for Laws and Arms,
As yielding large and early Swarms;
Was counted the great Nursery
Of Sciences and Industry.
No Bees had better Government,
More Fickleness, or less Content:
They were not Slaves to Tyranny,
Nor rul’d by wild Democracy;
[2]But Kings, that could not wrong, because
Their Power was circumscrib’d by Laws.
[snip}

T h u s every Part was full of Vice,

Yet the whole Mass a Paradise;

Flatter’d in Peace, and fear’d in Wars,
They were th’ Esteem of Foreigners,
And lavish of their Wealth and Lives,
The Balance of all other Hives.
Such were the Blessings of that State;
Their Crimes conspir’d to make them a Great:
(F.) And Virtue, who from Politicks
Had learn’d a Thousand Cunning Tricks,
Was, by their happy Influence,
Made Friends with Vice: And ever since,
(G.) The worst of all the Multitude

Did something for the Common Good.

HM, MAYBE THIS MAKES SENSE NOW

Back in 2009, FAUX News hack Brian Kilmeade stated that we shouldn't apply the findings of a study on Alzheimer's Disease because it was done in nations that are "ethnically pure", Finland and Sweden.   This concern with social homogeneity is not limited to medicine. Since then, I have come across many conservatives on message boards (like this one) who assert that socialism can only work in small countries because they are "ethnically pure."

I'm getting the impression that for these conservatives, American would be a lot better off if it was 100% white.

A REVIEW OF THE WATERBOARDING FACTS

First, we have been told by the CIA Director that only 3 detainees were waterboarded:

"Waterboarding has been used on only three detainees," Hayden told the Senate Intelligence Committee, publicly specifying the number of subjects and naming them for the first time, as Congress considers banning the technique.

Those subjected to waterboarding were al Qaeda suspects Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, Hayden said.

Second, of these three, only Khalid Sheik Mohammed was asked about OBL's courier AND HE LIED ABOUT HIM:

According to an American official, familiar with his interrogation, Mr. Mohammed was first asked about Mr. Kuwaiti in the fall of 2003, months after the waterboarding. He acknowledged having known him but said the courier was “retired” and of little significance.

WHO ARE THE GOP'S BASE?

(h/t Andrew Sullivan)

The Pew Research Center has come out with another interesting study of American political sociology and debunks another rightwing myth: America is 40% conservative.

Here are the real breakdowns:

The two most conservative groups account for 20% of the general public and 25% of registered voters. In comparison, the two most liberal groups account for 27% of the general public and 31% of registered voters.   Only the Staunch Conservatives have a majority (72%) that supports the Baggers:

IRVING KRISTOL: AN EARLY VERSION OF MARK LEVIN

(h/t Andew Sullivan)

Brad DeLong posted a lengthy excerpt (or all of it)  from Kristol's 1993 essay, "My Cold War" and here's a part I found interesting:

It was [Reinhold] Niebuhr who introduced me to the idea of "the human condition" as something permanent, inevitable, trans-cultural, trans-historical, a transcendent finitude. To entertain seriously such a vision is already to have disengaged oneself from a crucial progressive-liberal piety. It enables one to read the Book of Genesis with an appreciation that approaches awe.

I'm annoyed that Kristol didn't tell us exactly what the "crucial progressive-liberal piety" is but I suspect it has to do with Mankinds' possibility for improvement. This possibility involves pointing out blatant contradictions, even those found in Genesis.

THIS IS NICE

(h/t AZ Republic)

Since I read these reports about how correcting wingnut factual errors may make them more entrenched in their twisted minds, I've worried about the usefulness of my own attempt to do so, here and on message boards.

The good news is that at least in one very well-known case, coming out with the facts can have a major effect.

Truth trumps birthers
By Jonathan Capehart
Posted at 12:08 PM ET, 05/05/2011
Washington Post

This just in: release of President Obama’s birth certificate — the long-form version of the one he released in 2008 — has caused sanity to finally break out across America. According to a new Post poll, the ranks of the birthers has gone poof.

Those polled who believe Obama was born in Hawaii
2010: 48 percent
2011: 70 percent

Those polled who believe Obama was likely born abroad
2010: 20 percent
2011: 10 percent

Republicans who believe Obama was not born in the U.S.
2010: 31 percent
2011: 14 percent

Conservative Republicans who believe Obama was not born in the U.S.
2010: 35 percent
2011: 16 percent

YES, THE BAGGERS ARE WRONG

I never understood why the Baggers were so upset with taxes in spite of them being cut for most people in the stimulus bill and I still don't.  There's a nice McClatchy article that shows overall we have the lowest tax rate since about 1950 and also reports on other ways to look at the tax situation in America.  All come to same conclusion: we are undertaxed at present.  Here's a graph from the article:

THEY JUST DON'T NAME NAMES

Both Lawrence O'Donnell and Chris Matthews openly criticized Fats Limbaugh for his remarks about Pres. Obama & OBL but Bill O'Reilly refused to name Fats in his criticism of rightwing commentary.

MIKE MALLOY SPEAKS THE TRUTH ABOUT BUSH...

and the die-hard Bush Bots go nuts.  Mediaite provided this transcript from The Mike Malloy Show:

“I have heard some commentators talk about the fact that, all the lives that have been lost in this war on terror, and now the summary execution of the person responsible. But as soon as I heard that, I thought, well, bin Laden really didn’t have anything to do – did he – with Iraq? . . . All the death in Iraq was not caused by bin Laden. The death in Iraq was caused by George W. Bush. Five thousand Americans, tens of thousands permanently damaged and shot to pieces, a million Iraqis dead – that wasn’t bin Laden. That was George Bush. So when does Seal Unit 6, or whatever it’s called, drop in on George Bush? Bush was responsible for a lot more death, innocent death, than bin Laden.”

THE GOP CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE

His name is Mike Rogers and he's opposed to releasing the OBL pictures for the sake of our troops.  He said this to Pierce Morgan:

“Should we risk the life of one soldier to make these public?” he said on Piers Morgan Tonight. “It doesn’t help our cause and may in fact make the life of a solider in Afghanistan more difficult tomorrow. I just don’t see the value in that whatsoever.”

On the intelligence committee's web site, he left this message:

For Immediate Release Contact: Susan Phalen
May 4, 2011 (202) 225-4121

Chairman Rogers Opposes Public Release of Osama Bin Laden Photos
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Chairman Mike Rogers voiced his opposition today to the U.S. Government releasing the photographs of Osama bin Laden taken after he was killed by U.S. forces on Sunday.

“I don’t want to make the job of our troops serving in places like Iraq and Afghanistan any harder than it already is. The risks of release outweigh the benefits. Conspiracy theorists around the world will just claim the photos are doctored anyway, and there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East.

“Imagine how the American people would react if Al Qaida killed one of our troops or military leaders, and put photos of the body on the internet. Osama bin Laden is not a trophy – he is dead and let’s now focus on continuing the fight until Al Qaida has been eliminated.”

PREACHER BECK GETS ANOTHER SPEAKING GIG

This time it's for the "Israel Firsters" crowd.  From Beck's email newsletter:

Glenn to keynote "Christians United for Israel" event: This July Glenn will be the keynote speaker at the "Night to Honor Israel Banquet" in Washington DC. To register and to get more information about the event click HERE.

Here's a little more about CUFI from Matt Duss at Think Progress:

Last month, Cantor spoke to a conference of Christians United for Israel (CUFI), an organization led by Rev. John Hagee, the controversial cleric whose endorsement Sen. John McCain was forced to reject after people started reading Hagee’s numerous bizarre and offensive statements about Catholics, homosexuals, and Hitler’s divine role in the creation of Israel. 

SOMETHING ELSE I DIDN'T KNOW

I thought Pres. Bush or Sec. Rumsfeld  banned photos of military coffins but that policy was in put in place during the Bush senior term.

Defense Chief Lifts Ban on Pictures of Coffins
By ELISABETH BUMILLER
Published: February 26, 2009
NY Times

WASHINGTON — In a reversal of an 18-year-old military policy that critics said was hiding the ultimate cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the news media will now be allowed to photograph the coffins of America’s war dead as their bodies are returned to the United States, but only if the families of the dead agree.

The decision, which Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates announced Thursday, lifts a 1991 blanket ban on such photographs put in place under President George Bush. It chiefly affects coffins arriving from Iraq and Afghanistan that go through Dover Air Force Base in Delaware.

I EXPECTED MORE OF A FIGHT

(h/t The Daily Beast)

Given all the Noise Machine wanking about Rep. Paul Ryan's draconian budget plan, I expected the budget talks to be VERY tough but the GOP has caved in.  I guess they can also read poll numbers.

Budget talks: Republicans offer to seek common ground with Democrats
By Lori Montgomery, Published: May 4
Washington Post

Senior Republicans conceded Wednesday that a deal is unlikely on a contentious plan to overhaul Medicare and offered to open budget talks with the White House by focusing on areas where both parties can agree, such as cutting farm subsidies.

On the eve of debt-reduction talks led by Vice President Biden, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (Va.) said Republicans remain convinced that reining in federal retirement programs is the key to stabilizing the nation’s finances over the long term. But he said Republicans recognize they may need to look elsewhere to achieve consensus after President Obama “excoriated us” for a proposal to privatize Medicare.

MORE OBL CRAZINESS

It's not just confined to Americans. German Chancellor Angela Merkel said "I am glad that it was successful, the killing of Bin Laden," and is getting criticism from other German politicians, including members of her own party.  I find criticism of her mild statement almost offensive.

Back home, some folks are upset because OBL's code name was "Geronimo" because that's somehow offensive to American Indians.  These folks also need to relax.

 I caught Hannity whining today about Pres. Obama's decision not to release any OBL death photos and that criticism seems to be fairly widespread.  I admit to a morbid curiosity about the photos but if Pres. Obama, Sec. Gates, Sec. Clinton and the nation security advisors think it's best not to reveal them, I'm OK with that.

WE HAVE RUBES IN THE U.S. SENATE

And they are all members of the GOP: Brown, Chambliss and Ayotte. All 3 were fooled by the fake OBL death photo that's on the Internet. 

THE TORTURE & OBL QUESTION GETS A LITTLE TRICKIER

Two people who should know whether torture helped find OBL say it did: former CIA officer Jose Rodriguez and current CIA Director Leon Panetta.  What we won't ever know for sure is if it was necessary.

TIME magazine interviewed some of the CIA personnel involved in torturing prisoners and one of them claims that waterboarding was helpful in finding OBL:

A former head of counterterrorism at the CIA, who was investigated last year by the Justice Department for the destruction of videos showing senior al-Qaeda officials being interrogated, says that the harsh questioning of terrorism suspects produced the information that eventually led to Osama bin Laden’s death.

Jose Rodriguez ran the CIA’s CounterTerrorism Center from 2002 to 2005 during the period when top al-Qaeda leaders Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM) and Abu Faraj al-Libbi were taken into custody and subjected to “enhanced interrogation techniques” at secret black site prisons overseas. KSM was subjected to waterboarding, sleep deprivation and other techniques. Al Libbi was not waterboarded, but other EITs were used on him.

“Information provided by KSM and Abu Faraj al Libbi about Bin Laden’s courier was the lead information that eventually led to the location of [bin Laden’s] compound and the operation that led to his death,” Rodriguez tells TIME in his first public interview. Rodriguez was cleared of charges in the video destruction investigation last year.

If we limit the question to just waterboarding, it doesn't seem to have been that useful:

“Both KSM and al Libbi were held at CIA black sites and subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques,” Rodriguez says. “Abu Faraj was not waterboarded, but his information on the courier was key.”

Now, Rodriquez was the CIA officer who ordered the destruction of the videotapes of the EIT sessions. He escaped criminal charges:

No charges in destruction of CIA videotapes, Justice Department says
By Jerry Markon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 9, 2010; 3:11 PM

The Justice Department will not file criminal charges over the destruction of CIA videotapes depicting the harsh interrogation of terrorism suspects, limiting the legal fallout from one of the Bush administration's most fraught legacies, officials said Tuesday.

After an exhaustive probe that lasted nearly three years, federal prosecutor John Durham concluded that he would not bring a criminal case against the CIA officers. The burning of the 92 tapes on Nov. 9, 2005, was authorized in a cable sent by Jose Rodriguez Jr., head of the agency's directorate of operations.

A spokesman for Durham declined to comment Tuesday, and Justice Department officials would not elaborate on Miller's statement. The statute of limitations on criminal charges for the destruction of the videotapes expired this week.

Panetta spoke with NBC News yesterday and the headline was "CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid" and here's the transcript, courtesy of LexisNexis:

WILLIAMS: I`d like to ask you about the sourcing on the intel that ultimately led to this successful attack. Can you confirm that it was -- as a result of waterboarding that we learned what we needed to learn to go after bin Laden?

PANETTA: You know, Brian, in the intelligence business you work from a lot of sources of information. And that was true here. We had a -- we had a multiple source -- a multiple series of sources that provided information with regards to this situation.

Clearly, some of it came from detainees in the interrogation of detainees. But we also had information from other sources as well.


WILLIAMS: Turned around the other way, are you denying that waterboarding was in part among the tactics used to extract the intelligence that led to this successful mission?

PANETTA: No, I think some of the detainees, clearly, were -- you know, they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees. But I`m also saying that, you know, the debate about whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question.

WILLIAMS: Finer point, one final time, enhanced interrogation techniques -- which has always been a hand of handy euphemism --

PANETTA: Right.

WILLIAMS: -- in these post-9/11 years -- that includes waterboarding?

PANETTA: That`s correct.

And here's the video

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

Panetta also spoke with Katie Couric of CBS News and made essentially the same statement. Transcript also courtesy of LexisNexis:

COURIC: One of President Obama`s first acts was to outlaw enhanced interrogation techniques. Now, some of these were used on detainees who provided information that led to bin Laden`s whereabouts. Given that, do you think the use of these techniques should, in fact, be re-evaluated?

PANETTA: No, I really don`t. You know, I think what we had here were a lot of streams of intelligence that came together. And I think it`s probably going too far to say it all ties to just, you know, one source of information that we received. We were looking at a lot of lines of information, going back a long way.


COURIC: Having said that, some valuable information did, in fact, come from enhanced interrogation techniques.


PANETTA: Obviously there was -- there was some valuable information that was derived through those kinds of interrogations, but I guess the question that everybody will always debate is whether or not those approaches had to be used in order to get the same information. And that, frankly, is an open question.

IF ANYTHING, BUSH SHOULD THANK PRES. OBAMA...

because Obama finished up where Bush left off.

For Bush, getting bin Laden was 'unfinished business'
By Dave Montgomery | McClatchy Newspapers
Posted on Monday, May 2, 2011

AUSTIN, Texas — When he left office in January 2009, President George W. Bush knew he was leaving behind what he would later describe as "unfinished business" — tracking down Osama bin Laden.

"I wanted badly to bring bin Laden to justice," Bush wrote in his autobiography, "Decision Points." "The fact that we did not ranks among my great regrets."

WORD COUNTS

I copied Pres. Obama's Sunday OBL address and pasted it into Word 2010.  I then did a "find" on three words: I, me, we.  There are 37 occurrences of "we" (upper and lower case), 9 of "I" and only 2 of "me".  UPDATE: The word "our" occurred 49 times.

This post will only make sense to people who heard the first 15 minutes of Fats Limbaugh's Monday show.

ANOTHER CIVIL SUIT AGAINST THE BANKSTERS

This time it's Deutsche Bank which in 2007 had the bad idea to acquire a really crooked mortgage firm, MortgageIT.

Government sues Deutsche Bank over bad home loans
By Zachary Roth
Tue May 3, 3:29 pm ET
THE LOOKOUT

According to the complaint, MortgageIT, a unit of Deutsche Bank, issued more than 39,000 such loans between 1999 and 2009, worth more than $5 billion. Because the loans had won government backing, the bank was then able to turn around and sell them to investors--in the same fashion that other Wall Street forms were repackaging home loans as investment securities.

But in order to win the crucial cachet of an FHA-guaranteed mortgage, MortgageIT and Deutsche Bank had to file yearly certifications, affirming that the loans met HUD's standards. And federal prosecutors now allege that when the bank filed those documents, it "repeatedly lied to H.U.D. to obtain and maintain MortgageIT's Direct Endorsement Lender status." In part, the federal indictment alleges, the bank did not actually monitor the default rate of the securitized loans, even though it claimed to be doing so.

As far back as 2003, a HUD audit found that MortgageIT hadn't met basic standards of quality control. In response, the company assured the government that it had changed its practices. But, according to the complaint, that wasn't true.

3 FOR 3: TORTURE DIDN'T HELP US GET OBL

I noted below that both the AP and Reuters reported that torturing Al Qaeda prisoners did not provide any evidence that lead us to OBL and now the NY Times says at best it didn't provide much evidence.

Bin Laden Raid Revives Debate on Value of Torture
By SCOTT SHANE and CHARLIE SAVAGE
Published: May 3, 2011
NY Times

But a closer look at prisoner interrogations suggests that the harsh techniques played a small role at most in identifying Bin Laden’s trusted courier and exposing his hide-out. One detainee who apparently was subjected to some tough treatment provided a crucial description of the courier, according to current and former officials briefed on the interrogations. But two prisoners who underwent some of the harshest treatment — including Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times — repeatedly misled their interrogators about the courier’s identity.

Because Mr. Mohammed and Mr. Libi had both steered interrogators away from Mr. Kuwaiti, C.I.A. officials concluded that they must be protecting him for an important reason.

The one prisoner referred to is Hassan Ghul:

In 2004, however, a Qaeda operative named Hassan Ghul, captured in Iraq, gave a different account of Mr. Kuwaiti, according to the American official. Mr. Ghul told interrogators that Mr. Kuwaiti was a trusted courier who was close to Bin Laden, as well as to Mr. Mohammed and to Abu Faraj al-Libi, who had become the operational chief of Al Qaeda after Mr. Mohammed’s capture.

Mr. Kuwaiti, Mr. Ghul added, had not been seen in some time — which analysts thought was a possible indication that the courier was hiding out with Bin Laden.

The details of Mr. Ghul’s treatment are unclear, though the C.I.A. says he was not waterboarded. The C.I.A. asked the Justice Department to authorize other harsh methods for use on him, but it is unclear which were used. One official recalled that Mr. Ghul was “quite cooperative,” saying that rough treatment, if any, would have been brief.

BACK TO THE SOS

Today, Fats Limbaugh tried to spin the OBL attack as a justification for both former Pres. Bush and torture.  I saw a bit of this reaction much earlier in the AM on a POLITICO thread but I don't think it will catch on.  In other freakshow news, Coast to Coast AM had an online poll and over 42% don't think that the sea burial of OBL was a just part of a coverup.  Here's a screen cap from a couple of minutes ago:

The White House is somewhat complicit with these skeptics because it made some changes to the official story.

OCT 7, 2008

(h/t Jason Linkins at HuffPo)

This is what then-candidate Obama said during a Town Hall debate with the grumpy old guy:

And if we have Osama bin Laden in our sights and the Pakistani government is unable or unwilling to take them out, then I think that we have to act, and we will take them out.

We will kill bin Laden. We will crush al Qaeda. That has to be our biggest national security priority.

PoltiFact rates this as a "Promise Kept"

THIS IS SO SWEET

I consider Glenn Reynolds (Instapundit) to be second only to Huge Ego Hewitt in dimwit bloviating and to read about his latest blunder will make a nicer Tuesday.  From Andrew Sullivan:

In case you missed it last night, Reynolds had an op-ed yesterday in the Washington Examiner on Obama's foreign policy skills. It's awesome and, for some reason, he doesn't give us a link to it on his page. So allow me:

Meanwhile, on foreign policy -- another Carter weak point -- Obama also looks worse. Carter blew it with Iran, encouraging the Iranian armed forces to stay in their barracks, while Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini's radical Islamists (whom Carter thought of as "reformers") took power, and then approved the ill-conceived hostage rescue mission that ended with ignominious failure in the desert. Obama, by contrast, could only wish for such success.

In case you forgot, on the very same day of the Ole Perfesser's op-ed...

Osama bin Laden: 9/11 Mastermind Is Dead

YES, THE GLOW WILL FADE BEFORE 2012

But the lesson will remain: Pres. Obama is VERY GOOD on national security issues.

That certainly will reduce the traditional GOP advantage in these areas and can only help Obama's re-election. In addition, given how much the Baggers and their allies have whined about budget deficits, the GOP can't propose anything like a Reagan-era buildup of defense.  Overall, I'd say Peter Beinart is correct.

ANOTHER POST JUST FOR THE WINGNUTS

I suspect that the radio gasbags will "ask" their listeners why American Muslims weren't pleased with the death of OBL so I'm posting some excerpts from this report in The Raw Story.

American Muslims celebrate bin Laden’s death
By Agence France-Presse
Monday, May 2nd, 2011 -- 6:20 pm

DEARBORN, Michigan — Arab and Muslim Americans Monday celebrated the death of Osama bin Laden saying justice had been served, but remained wary of any Al-Qaeda reprisals, and said the scars of 9/11 run deep.

A crowd gathered outside the Dearborn city hall shortly after the news was announced Sunday night, chanting "USA! USA!".

"We are very happy to hear the news that he has been eliminated," said Osama Siblani, publisher of the Arab American News.

Dawud Walid, who heads the Michigan branch of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said he was also happy to see "justice served" and was thankful that US President Barack Obama reiterated that the United States will never be at war with Islam.

"Anyone who views Osama bin Laden as some type of holy martyr is severely misguided," Walid told AFP. "There is nothing holy or righteous about what bin Laden represented."

Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic relations (CAIR), agreed that bin Laden "received justice yesterday" adding the Al-Qaeda leader had "never represented our community of Islam or the Muslims."

"We urge our government... to put extra efforts into ending the war in Afghanistan and in Iraq," he told journalists in Washington.

The Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) greeted bin Laden's death with "an immense sense of relief."

"We hope this is a turning point away from the dark period of the last decade, in which bin Laden symbolized the evil face of global terrorism," MPAC President Salam Al-Marayati said in a statement.

"We support President Obama's statement that bin Laden was 'not a Muslim leader, he was a mass murderer of Muslims,'" said MPAC Senior Adviser Dr. Maher Hathout.

"We stand together with all Americans and all peace-loving people around the world in remaining vigilant against any and all threats against our country."

KSM, WATERBOARDING AND THE COURIER

Like the AP, Reuters reports that waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed did NOT lead to the name of OBL's courier.

Bin Laden kill may reopen CIA interrogation debate
By Mark Hosenball
REUTERS

WASHINGTON | Mon May 2, 2011 11:04pm EDT
One of the key sources for initial information about an al Qaeda "courier" who led U.S. authorities to bin Laden's Pakistani hide-out was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the al Qaeda operative said to have masterminded the September 11, 2001 attacks, a former U.S. national security official said.

KSM, as he was known to U.S. officials, was subjected to "waterboarding" 183 times, the U.S. government has acknowledged.

But it was not until later, after waterboarding was suspended because it and other harsh techniques became heatedly debated, that Mohammed told interrogators about the existence of a courier particularly close to bin Laden, a fragmentary tip that touched off a years-long manhunt that ended in bin Laden's death at the hands of U.S. special forces on Sunday.

And at the time the information surfaced, the CIA had already abandoned some of its most controversial interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, in which water is poured over the face of an interrogation subject to simulate drowning, current and former U.S. officials told Reuters.

In 2004, the CIA suspended these techniques. Subsequent revelations about agency practices led to charges the United States had engaged in torture.

ANOTHER FLASHBACK

I recall that the Taliban offered to turn over Osama Bin Laden for trial in the 3rd country IF the U.S. gave them evidence that he was behind the 9-11 attacks.  The initial offer was rejected and so was a later, modified offer.

New offer on Bin Laden
Minister makes secret trip to offer trial in third country
Rory McCarthy in Islamabad
The Guardian, Wednesday 17 October 2001 03.22 BST

A senior Taliban minister has offered a last-minute deal to hand over Osama bin Laden during a secret visit to Islamabad, senior sources in Pakistan told the Guardian last night.

For the first time, the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden for trial in a country other than the US without asking to see evidence first in return for a halt to the bombing, a source close to Pakistan's military leadership said.

The Taliban have offered to hand over Bin Laden before but only if sufficient evidence was presented. ... But until now the Taliban regime has consistently said it has not seen any convincing evidence to implicate the Saudi dissident in any crime.

"Now they have agreed to hand him over to a third country without the evidence being presented in advance," the source close to the military said.

The earlier offer was made in September:

Taliban Won't Turn Over Bin Laden
Fierce Fighting Rages Between Taliban And Northern Alliance
Sept. 21, 2001

(CBS) Without evidence, Afghanistan's Taliban rulers will not hand over Osama bin Laden, Afghanistan's ambassador to Pakistan said Friday.

The rejection came in a statement by Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan. Asked whether the Taliban would hand over bin Laden, Zaeef said, "No." But his translator said, "No, not without evidence."

"Our position on this is that if America has proof, we are ready for the trial of Osama bin Laden in light of the evidence."

MAYBE THIS ISN'T SIGNIFICANT

(h/t Stephanie Miller Show)

We know that then-President Bush said in early 2002 that he wasn't that interested in Osama Bin Laden and today I learned that in late 2005, the CIA disbanded its Bin Laden unit, known as Alec Station.

C.I.A. Closes Unit Focused on Capture of bin Laden
By MARK MAZZETTI
Published: July 4, 2006
NY Times

WASHINGTON, July 3 — The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday.

The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said.

UPDATE: Commenter Stopthenonsense,Stop on this POLITICO thread posted a link to a Weekly Standard article the supports the contention that getting OBL became a secondary issue for the Bush regime;:

Inside the Oval Office
President Bush gives journalists a "heads up" about the mid-term elections, among other things.
1:54 PM, Sep 13, 2006 • By FRED BARNES
THE WEEKLY STANDARD

WE NOW KNOW WHY the Bush administration hasn't made the capture of Osama bin Laden a paramount goal of the war on terror. Emphasis on bin Laden doesn't fit with the administration's strategy for combating terrorism. Here's how President Bush explained this Tuesday: "This thing about . . . let's put 100,000 of our special forces stomping through Pakistan in order to find bin Laden is just simply not the strategy that will work."

FURTHER RESULTS FROM A PUNDIT STUDY

(h/t Jim Romanesko)

A political science class of Prof. P. Gary Wyckoff at Hamilton College did a study of the accuracy of predictions of famous and not so famous prognosticators and found, as I would expect, that the most accurate are liberals.

I found this more interesting  in the literature review portion, in part because I had noted the study before::

While initially investigating whether higher levels of education and experience correspond to higher predictive accuracy, Tetlock ultimately concluded that cognitive style was the most important influence on prediction accuracy. Using the framework derived from Isaiah Berlin’s essay The Hedgehog and the Fox that “hedgehogs know one big thing; foxes know many things, (Berlin, 3)” Tetlock separated experts into two groups with competing cognitive approaches to prediction and found “the hedgehog-fox dimension did what none of the other traits did: distinguish more accurate forecasters from less accurate ones in both economics and politics” (Begley,45).

According to Tetlock, there are clear differences between hedgehogs and foxes. Hedgehogs “know one big thing” and “apply that one thing everywhere,” express “supreme confidence in their forecasts, dismiss opposing views and are drawn to top-down arguments deduced from that Big Idea”; they “seek certainty and closure, dismiss information that undercuts their preconceptions and embrace evidence that reinforces them” (Begley, 45). Foxes “consider competing views, make bottom-up inductive arguments from an array of facts, doubt the power of Big Ideas” and “are cognitively flexible, modest and open to self-criticism” (Begley, 45). Ultimately, “what experts think matters far less than how they think: their cognitive style” (Begley, 45). Tetlock found that foxes outperform hedgehogs in prediction accuracy in virtually all fields, across all time periods, and across the various levels of expertise.

In our current political environment, I'd say that many if not most prominent conservatives were Hedgehogs and Mark Levin may be model for all of them because he views conservatism as an all-embracing philosophy, not limited to questions of mere politics.

Here are the relevant sources used by the Hamilton study:

Begley, Sharon. “Why Pundits Get Things Wrong.” Newsweek. February 23, 2009. Volume 153 Issue 8.P 45.


Tetlock, Philip. Expert Political Judgment: How good is it? How can we know?. Princeton University
Press, 2009.

THE GASBAGS AND THE DEATH OF OSAMA BIN LADEN

Fats Limbaugh tried to make his listeners believe that Pres. Obama made the successful operation all about Obama but at least one of his listeners didn't buy that spin.  Fats was a bit off on his game today because his delivery was really awkward and that led some to report that Limbaugh wasn't spinning.  Media Matters reports that several other wingnut pundits tried the same spin.

Mark Levin had no praise for Pres. Obama and smeared liberals again by accusing them of being against the war on terror.

Michael Savage was almost reasonable when he urged his listeners to give Pres. Obama some credit.

Both Levin and Savage falsely claimed that waterboarding caused KSM to give up the crucial information about Osama's courier but that was months after KSM had been waterboarded:

Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden
By ADAM GOLDMAN and MATT APUZZO Associated Press
WASHINGTON May 2, 2011 (AP)

Mohammed did not discuss al-Kuwaiti while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He acknowledged knowing him many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic. .

UPDATE: (h/t Julescator at POLITICO) I'm a little concerned about using Newsmax and former SECDEF Rumsfeld as sources but he gave Newsmax an interview and stated that no torture was used to get the tip about OBL's courier:

Rumsfeld Exclusive: There Was No Waterboarding of Courier Source
Monday, 02 May 2011 01:02 PM
By Jim Meyers and Ashley Martella
NEWSMAX

“The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone. It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

SO FAR, THIS IS THE CRAZIEST COMMENT ON POLITICO

The strength of this person's paranoia is overwhelming.

tropicgirl

Member Since: Sep. 25, 2008

Party: Independent

#392
May. 2, 2011 - 9:19 AM EST

I don't think many are actually buying this. But I will say its a hugely orchestrated event, complete with the paid-for press and bloggers.

If they spent as much time and our money as they do conducting these non-events (hence the latest round of fake pictures) in actually running a republic, we would be in the golden age.


What we have now is simply the golden age of fakery.

MORE EARLY SPIN

I've been reading a few POLITICO threads about the death of Bin Laden and so far I've found a couple more conservative spins:

1) Torture worked
2) But Clinton let Bin Laden go

REMEMBER, MICHELE BACHMANN IS ON...

the House Intelligence Committee!
(h/t David at Crooks & Liars)

She was on FAUX News Sunday and got the facts wrong again:

The Minnesota congresswoman told Fox News' Chris Wallace that NATO airstrikes had killed up to 30,000 civilians in the country.

"People should be outraged at the foolishness of the president's decision," she said. "He said he wanted to go in for humanitarian purposes and overnight we are hearing that potentially 10 to 30,000 people could have been killed in the strike. Those are some of the reports."

"The NATO strikes killed 10,000 to 30,000 people?" an incredulous Wallace asked.

"A report that came out last night from the Tripoli ambassador said that potentially there could be 10,000 to 30,000," Bachmann insisted.

To his credit, Chris Wallace set the record straight before the program ended:

"I just want to clear up, because we looked into what Michele Bachmann had been saying. She quoted the U.S. ambassador to Libya saying 30,000 people had been killed in the NATO strike so far. In fact, what Ambassador Gene Cretz said is that he estimated that 30,000 people had been killed by all sides in the entire conflict. That includes the rebels and the Gaddafi forces. So big difference," he said.

MAYBE FAUX NEWS JUST CAN'T GET GOOD HELP?

You might recall the times when FAUX misidentified a Republican official who had been caught doing something wrong as a Democrat and some of us thought it might be deliberate.  Now I am not so sure.

Gawker has this screen cap from  FAUX:

and a commenter on the accompanying thread found another gem:

MORE EARLY BAGGER SPIN

On this POLITICO thread, some are whinging that the American forces involved didn't get enough credit.  They apparently missed this part of Pres. Obama's speech:

Tonight, we give thanks to the countless intelligence and counterterrorism professionals who’ve worked tirelessly to achieve this outcome. The American people do not see their work, nor know their names. But tonight, they feel the satisfaction of their work and the result of their pursuit of justice.

We give thanks for the men who carried out this operation, for they exemplify the professionalism, patriotism, and unparalleled courage of those who serve our country. And they are part of a generation that has borne the heaviest share of the burden since that September day.

CRACKERS, THE SOUTH AND THE BAPTISTS

I've finished reading Grady McWhiney's terrific book on how the Scots-Irish came to America before the Revolution and pretty much kept their way of life because they were mostly on the frontier.  I didn't find out how so many of them in the South turned from their native Presbyterianism and became Baptists but Patrick Griffin's book, The People with No Name, offers one explanation.

According to Griffin, itinerant Baptist preachers from New England were able to go into the wilderness areas by themselves to convert the Scots-Irish and at the same time, the Scots-Irish really wanted some religious structure in their lives because there wasn't much rule of law on the frontier.

From pages 164-65:

The "Congregations to the Southward" were instructed to appoint elders, install discipline, and adjust the lines between parishes so "in their after conduct" they could "proceed to obtain the Stated Ministry." The synod from the north "had their interest much at heart," assuring the people in Virginia that its members would "neglect no opportunities of affording them proper candidates and supplies to the utmost of our power." Before the church would minister to the men and women further south, its institutions would have to be put in place. Such a process promised to be time-consuming.

The people living further south had little patience for such an approach. Searching for stability in a world transforming before their eyes, they expected a rapid response the church to the north could not provide. Baptist missionaries, however, could. Preachers from New England hoping to win souls traveled into Virginia as settlers ventured to the frontier of the colony. And they enjoyed much success. In one sense, the New England evangelical tradition championed by Baptist itinerants gained a substantial following in Virginia because the established Anglican Church failed to comprehend the needs of poor settlers in the west of the colony.

...Baptists promised the benefits of vital religion without institutional trappings or delay. Baptists favored an independent form of church government and, therefore, did not have to answer to any formal church hierarchy. The congregation of believers, they argued, formed the bedrock of the church. Moreover, they required no formal education for ministers.

FLASHBACK

Within 6 months, former Pres. Bush decided that getting Osama Bin Laden was not a priority:

FLIP:

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." - G.W. Bush, 9/13/01

"I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'"- G.W. Bush, 9/17/01

FLOP:

So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you. G.W. Bush March 13, 2002 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. G.W. Bush March 13, 2002 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

HOW WILL THE GASBAGS SPIN THIS?

I'm listening to WINS (NYC) and it's clear now that Osama Bin Laden has been killed by U.S. forces and we have his body.  Over at POLITICO, I found one response from a Bagger:

Dakotaplains2

Member Since: Apr. 17, 2011

Party: Conservative

#588

May. 1, 2011 - 11:01 PM EST

  makes 2 much dollars & sense: May. 1, 2011 - 10:54 PM EST  

Bin Laden Is Dead, U.S. Official Says

Yea I was just reading it on the Wall St Journal.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704569404576297941397558496.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEADNewsCollection
US Military has his body. Now watch the liberals say obama gets the credit. No he dont. The one who did it does.

THE DONALD RACKS UP ANOTHER FAIL

Prior to the White House Correspondents Dinner, Donald Trump told ABC News that he didn't think the President would mention him.

Donald Trump pushes back at prez jokes

BOR PROVES ONCE AGAIN THAT HE'S IGNORANT

Years ago I read a book  ( I think it's this one) that catalogued the factual errors Bill O'Relly had made and I came away with the impression that he's nothing more than a neighborhood bar blowhard.  Mediaite has provided a video clip of BOR talking to Glenda Beck and BOR apparently doesn't have a clue about how popular Ayn Rand is with many conservatives.